Rider | Enkidu (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
toomuchbull) wrote2012-09-20 09:32 pm
toomuchbull) wrote2012-09-20 09:32 pm
Entry tags:
The Scenario of "What if Kirsikka Won and Dragged Team Lansaber into Godhead?"
Or, how would their mythology and mourning rituals go?
Meg: Kaede would make a very good deity actually 8|a
WHY AM I THINKING ABOUT THIS SELF NO
gileonnen: she would.
Meg: kirsikka's the vengefulhalf, she's the merciful half.
gileonnen: RIDER WOULD SMACK YOU.
They would make an excellent joint godhead.
And Julie could be the Masked Goddess who weighs men's souls~
And Lancer could be the personification of true devotion.
Meg: Man I have to admit Lancer would also be an AWESOME pscyhopomp.
gileonnen: YES. Very best. ^__^
Meg: (The angry sumerian in my head is pitching a fit over this discussion)
gileonnen: (pats him Oh, honey, you don't get a say.)
Meg: (He gets a say because he has to DEAL WITH ALL OF THIS CRAZY, EXCUSE YOU.)
HM but what would the rituals be, and what would be the mythology surrounding them
gileonnen: ... Lancer and Saber as gods of the dead, she weighs them and measures them and then he leads them to where they have to go; their mythos is about chance meetings and crossroads and frequent partings.
At one point he argues with her for the inherent worth of one soul, and she gives in--and after that, all of the dead are his.
Because if this soul, why not this one? Or this one?
And Kirsikka and Kaede hold sway over the land of the living; when the sky is clouded, they say that Kaede is hiding her face.
A red sunset means Kaede is blushing; it's a good omen for virgins seeking sweethearts.
Meg: Okay I MAYBE just went aaaaaaaaaaw at the last part, because moe god
gileonnen: Cutest. ^____^ She would make a really good god.
Meg: Hm, I would imagine she had more of a devoted cult, Kirsikka is more awe and terror inspiring
gileonnen: nodnod Ditto the Lancer cult.
Meg: Oh goodness you know that six coins in a purse becomes a part of burial ritual.
gileonnen: YES. As does the rite of dressing the dead in the clothes of someone more respectable--in case a costume fools Saber.
Meg: Which makes me wonder about usual ritual acts for the living.
I don't see Kaede being the sacrificial type
gileonnen: Whereas Kirsikka is all 'THEIR HEARTS. ON AN ALTAR.'
Meg: Hm, Kirsikka would be public acts of devotions (and you best do that sacrifice OUTSIDE her sacred spaces), Kaede private then.
Gileonnen: nodnod Just so. Acts of charity are acts in her service; they're nearly the only kind of public worship that exists for her.
There's an order akin to the Faceless Men devoted to Kirsikka's service, giving death to those who have deserved it.
At first they're regarded as simply the monastic face of Kirsikka's worship; after time, though, they're viewed as fringe reactionary lunatics.
Theirs, too, is considered 'private service.'
Meg: The only time their spheres interact would be mourning.
gileonnen: ... so I really want this to be a thing. *_*
Meg: Posted~
And in both cases song is huge.
gileonnen: YES. The primary feature of ritual as it's habitually practiced, rather than ritual for holy days and major life milestones.
Meg: Yessssss.
gileonnen: Heh, looks like you missed a message from me.
Meg: OH DERP
gileonnen: Gileonnen: nodnod Just so. Acts of charity are acts in her service; they're nearly the only kind of public worship that exists for her.
There's an order akin to the Faceless Men devoted to Kirsikka's service, giving death to those who have deserved it.
At first they're regarded as simply the monastic face of Kirsikka's worship; after time, though, they're viewed as fringe reactionary lunatics.
Theirs, too, is considered 'private service.'
Meg: Also I bet the GRail War itself becomes a part of the mythology. Mystery play anyone?
gileonnen: Came after 'Kaede private then.'
Meg: /GOES TO EDIT THAT IN
gileonnen: Sorry, my connection is DEATH.
Meg: IT'S FINE
gileonnen: MYSTERY PLAYS, OH MY GOD, SO MANY MYSTERY PLAYS.
(Especially for the dead, but also for equinoxes, solstices, new years. Constant reiteration of death, rebirth, sacrifice, transcending the mortal plane.)
Meg: (YESYESYESYES)
Probably the big holiday would be whatever day they hit godhead, and there is a definite retelling of the Grail War - leftover from whatever Kirsikka has permitted to filter down. (I don't see this being a religion that focuses on holy writ)
Sent at 9:45 PM on Thursday
gileonnen: Definitely more based on song cycles.
Meg: ....and this means, rather naturally, there are operas that develop from this tradition.
WHICH SHOULD PLEASE JULIE
gileonnen: Well, naturally.
Meg: Somewhere along the line, she gets associated with theatre and wow she's basically going to take on a lot of roles of Bacchus.
Sent at 9:52 PM on Thursday
gileonnen: Lancer's mythos is sort of like Penelope meets Anubis.
Meg: ...oh gosh, you're right
This is really just put mythology in a blender and pulse, huh
gileonnen: Yup! :D
Meg: THE RESULTS ARE DELICIOUS
gileonnen: Kirsikka is like an Aztec Louhi.
Meg: (Which makes your Road to El Dorado montages with It's Tough to be a God even more delightful.)
I wonder how magecraft works within this divine plan though - clearly it'd be seen as some sort of blessing
gileonnen: nods The Third Magic is the sole province of gods, though. The Grail Wars cease.
Meg: Oh, absolutely. They were a dreadful thing of the past.
To try and fidddle with the Third Magic would be punishable by death, if not just be begging for a good smite.
gileonnen: nodnod So essentially the Einzberns become persecutable mages.
Meg: Oh yes.
gileonnen: The Clock Tower is ... probably struck by vengeful lightning.
The Tohsaka line is obliterated from the earth.
Meg: (Things Rider is okay with as far as this fuckery goes: THAT. AND THAT ALONE.)
gileonnen: Kaede asks for mercy for them, and so Lancer spares them in a world like a coccoon.
Meg: Also Kaede, your heart is far too big.
gileonnen: Rider? ... congratulations, you get a place in this cosmology, too.
Meg: .....HE DOESN'T LIKE WHERE THIS IS GOING.
gileonnen: Your task is to be the force that brings about the end of the time of gods.
Meg: ....he stands corrected.
gileonnen: Because every good Asgard needs a Ragnarok.
Meg: Is his friend invited too?
gileonnen: ... dude, we just went over Saber's guilt about shafting Rider's dreams of reuniting with his friend.
Of course his friend is invited, too.
Meg: Oh excellent.
gileonnen: But the deal is--the moment he chooses to end the age of gods, he loses Gilgamesh forever.
Meg: .....
//WHALE
/NOISE
/MANY WHALE NOISES
gileonnen: offers emergency sorbet
Meg: YEAH HANG ON LEMME DO THAT
OKAY got it.
8|a Ah but then what about all the other teams?
gileonnen: Pfft, does Team Lansaber care about them?
Not yet they don't.
Wait until they've gotten acquainted, then we'll decide who goes into the mythology.
Meg: Now what I wonder is HOW this cosmic shift happens
And how do the new deities announce themselves.
Is it from the beginning, and there will have never been a change or--
gileonnen: I think Kirsikka's envisioning a cataclysmic shift.
Meg: ...crap you haven't read Lucifer have you
gileonnen: Not yet! It's on my list.
Along with Transmetropolitan.
Meg: Wait until the election's over for Transmet, TRUST ME HERE
But I ask because there's this one scene in Lucifer where the Basanos (deck of tarot cards given life) announces itself as new gods of a cosmos (riding on the chariot, where "our chariot is ourselves") and I'm seeing something similar here.
gileonnen: Yup, that sounds like Kirsikka.
Meg: I THINK TEAM LANCER WOULD LOOK AWAY
(and ack the entire apocalypse thing is just making me think of this one section from the Death of Gilgamesh)
gileonnen: Mmm?
Meg: "You must have been told that this is what the bane of being human involves. You must have been told that this is what the cutting of your umbilical cord involved. The darkest day of humans awaits you now. The solitary place of humans awaits you now. The unstoppable flood-wave awaits you now. The unavoidable battle awaits you now. The unequal struggle awaits you now. The skirmish from which there is no escape awaits you now
gileonnen: That ... is totally their apocalypse, right there.
Meg: 8D
(the text is sort of patchy itself BUT I REALLY LOVE THIS SECTION)
Ah, and then the next sentence in that section is "But you should not go to the underworld with heart knotted in anger" I SORT OF DOUBT THAT IT IS APPLICABLE TO THIS APOCALYPSE THOUGH
gileonnen: NOPE, it is far more relevant to the progress-of-the-dead narrative.
Meg: ( http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1813.htm full text if you're curious)
gileonnen: You know that's the kind of thing Saber would say before shoving someone at Lancer.
Meg: ...What if every funeral is a mourning play?
Also yes, it totally would be.
I imagine in general Lancer doesn't really command much fear.
(HE IS ASSOCIATED WITH DOGS.)
gileonnen: ^_____^ GREAT BIG BOUNCY PUPPYDOGS.
Meg: YES.
.....oh no I'm having a feeling.
gileonnen: Mm?
Meg: Later on in that text I quoted at you
"Go ahead to the place where the Anuna gods, the great gods, sit at the funerary offerings, to the place where the en priests lie, to where the lagar priests lie, to where the lumah priests and the nindijir priestesses lie, to where the gudu priests lie, to where the linen-clad priests lie, to where the nindijir priestesses lie, to where the ...... lie, to the place where your father, your grandfather, your mother, your sisters, your ......, to where your precious friend, your companion, your friend Enkidu, your young comrade, and the governors appointed by the king to the Great City are, to the place where the sergeants of the army lie, to where the captains of the troops lie,"
FOREVER MAKING WHALE NOISES.
SORBET ISN'T HELPING.
gileonnen: ... so this is a part of the mythos. Saber and Lancer take Gilgamesh to the Land of the Dead to retrieve Enkidu.
And there they make their pact.
Meg: (YOU AREN'T HELPING YM GODDAMN WHALE NOISES)
gileonnen: (I'M NOT EVEN TRYING TO HELP AT THIS POINT.)
Meg: (OH WELL, GLAD WE'RE CLEAR THERE.)
(/IS A POD OF DISTRESSED BELUGAS)
(here lemme throw another part of the text at you too - "Let Gilgamec as a ghost, below among the dead, be the governor of the nether world. Let him be pre-eminent among the ghosts, so that he will pass judgments and render verdicts, and what he says will be as weighty as the words of Ninjiczida and Dumuzid." )
(let's ignore for a moment that this seems like a pretty Not Good plan)
gileonnen: (That is a TERRIBLE plan, you'd better let Saber take that.)
(Here, she will hold the Judging Sword.)
Meg: (THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN THE MYTHOLOGY AND THERE'S EVIDENCE OF PRAYERS, BUT I DIGREE)
(Disgress even.)
....they're identified with chaos
aren't they
gileonnen: Who, Rider and Archer v. 1.0? Yup.
Meg: WELP.
I AM OKAY WITH IT, I DON'T THINK THEY ARE.
gileonnen: KIDS, YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO GET A BETTER MYTHOLOGICAL DEAL.
Meg: SADLY, THEY KNOW THIS.
GILGAMESH IS CANONICALLY GENRE SAVVY.
(AND THEY ARE BOTH JUST MENTALLY CLASSIFYING KIRSIKKA AS ISHTAR.)
gileonnen: (THEY WOULD NOT BE ENTIRELY WRONG.)
Meg: (LOGIC SAYS DON'T SCREW WITH ISHTAR AGAIN. )
(but then that's logic)
AND GDI BECAUSE NOW I'M ME I'M TRYING TO PLY THE 4TH AND 5TH WAR CONTESTANTS INTO THIS COSMOS.
gileonnen: Nonono, there are no more Grail Wars, DESIST.
Meg: OH NO NOT GRAIL WAR WISE JUST
what is everyone even up to
PRESSUMABLY RYUNOSKE JUST DOES HIS THING
gileonnen: Waver never becomes a Clock Tower mage because the Clock Tower is no longer a Thing. Probably Kayneth's line gets squashed in the purge.
Meg: Tokiomi is a non-issue
Kirei?
gileonnen: Depends on what happens to Risei.
Probably leads a Christian resistance for a while.
Probably never gets around to reproducing.
Meg: Kayria doesn't happen either, unless Kaede has divine offspring--
(Kiritsugu working with the Einzbern and going toe to toe with the gods though COULD BE INTERESTING)
(I mean he'd lose, but)
gileonnen: ... oh my god Kariya as spiritual offspring of a virgin Kaede.
The Christians cling to his line.
(If anyone can take 'em down, it's Kiritsugu.)
... but Kariya the new savior, man, I need this mythos in my liiiife.
Meg: SAKDF;JSALKJF;SLKAJFSAL
....you know we're going to have to write this
This is going to be the serious stuff that takes up the Carnival Phantasm thread. You know it.
gileonnen: Yeah, that was my suspicion. What can we say, we like building worlds!
Meg: And this is sort of everything I love?
gileonnen: ... oh god we accidentally eradicated Rin. D:
Meg: ....................................OH RAP
THIS IS ACTUALLY NOT OKAY
gileonnen: STOP, REWIND THIS UNIVERSE.
I mean, the Tohsakas are in their little pocket dimension, Rin could actually exist as far as we know.
Meg: True but does she get to ever leave it?
gileonnen: And, heck, maybe Ilya actually summons her as part of the Einzbern quest for the Third Magic?
Meg: (Rin and Waver bromance is my top priority no matter what)
(DON'T CARE THE AU, FIXED POINT IN TIME)
gileonnen: And she has to be a familiar because she can't maintain her body in this universe without mana?
Meg: ....that would actually be awesome.
Oh no, Iri.
gileonnen: YES.
Iri summons her, and she grows up to be fierce and dangerous and a crack shot.
Meg: YES. YES GOOD. YESYESYESYESYES.
gileonnen: And she tries to convince the mages (like Waver) to go to war against the gods, and Waver ... what does he do?
Sent at 10:46 PM on Thursday
Meg: (also if you sent a message after "what does he do" i didn't get it cos gchat went omnomnom)
gileonnen: Probably tries to take the universe apart at her side.
Meg: WA. VER.
gileonnen: That was what I sent. ^_^;
Meg: somehow, I don't see them pulling it off.
Unless. Hm.
Unless it's a slight of hand.
Kiritsugu's up in the gods' face, Waver and Rin working behind the scenes--
gileonnen: They certainly manage something, but maybe not the thing they meant to.
Meg: Ah, but then what DO they manage?
gileonnen: One of them becomes a god, to keep the others in line. Probably Kiritsugu, based on how the Fate/ series has gone.
Meg: I don't see him being thrilled on that one. I imagine the Rin and Waver story just gets lost for a while, then rediscoverd as an odd little text
gileonnen: It's all very 'Who Watches the Watchmen.'
Meg: Yessssssss.
I am also assuming Iri here gets left out of the deity equation re: Kiritsugu
(I do like to think then, somehow, Shirou enters whatever clerical order becomes attached to Kiritsugu's tradition
gileonnen: I'm down with that. I do love apocrypha~
I am just predicting based on the series.
I'd certainly prefer that it be Iri. She's best suited to be a goddess, after Kaede's mode.
... oh my goodness Shirou actually does grow up to be Archer!Shirou in this universe.
His life is a steampunk sword wonderland.
Meg: Rin and Waver are completely in the apocrypha and MAN I COULD PROBABLY MAKE AN ENTIRE FIC OF ARTICLES IN THE FUTURE TALKING ABOUT THIS ~REDISCOVERED TEXT~
also steampunk sword wonderland sounds like a good album title.
gileonnen: We are so far down the rabbit hole, we are about to emerge in Watership Down.
Meg: I do not even care.
Apocrypha is my jam
Altough OH NO THERE IS NEVER ANY TEAM RIDER AND WAVER
gileonnen: THIRD MAGIC, IT CAN BE A THING.
Meg: ...actually hang on, what happened to the other afterlives BEFORE Kirsikka
Do they get absorbed into the new ones?
gileonnen: ... yeah, let's go with that.
So Rider's still got a reality marble rolling around with the Ionian Hetairoi, inside the other afterlife.
Meg: ...rider.
(I've always said the Ionian Hetairoi is part of the dreaming)
(but this works too)
gileonnen: (there is no mythos of dreams here and that is a crying shame.)
(let's give Kaede that realm.)
Meg: (...yes.)
(Hm though fixed point, Waver is a part of the Ionian Hetairoi, so he bypasses the new afterlife entirely--)
(Which could be interesting actually)
gileonnen: (And Rider is all 'Heh, the world works in mysterious ways' and Waver is all '-___- Mystery MY ENGLISH REAR END, I am going to go do Science to this.')
Meg: (WAVER, HONEY, RESTLESS SPIRIT IS ONE THING, SCIENCING THE AFTERLIFE'S ANOTHER)
(Stop that.)
gileonnen: (But but but but there is a logical underlying structure, he just needs to find it and trace it back to the fracture--)
Meg: (....waver trying to undo the entire third grail war. with science. from the afterlife.)
(because he has figured out something went wrong.)
(WAVER.)
gileonnen: (AND HE KEEPS UP A CORRESPONDENCE WITH A POCKET DIMENSION IN WHICH RIN RESIDES.)
Meg: (ACTUALLY THIS COULD WORK IF THE GODS AREN'T KEEPING AN EYE ON THEM)
(although at one point he's probably tried to drag her into the reality marble, with mixed results.)
gileonnen: (Dude, Saber's messenger facilitates, he thinks it's the best.)
Meg: (Saber they could undo your cosmos, you sure you want to encourage this?)
gileonnen: (I'm not totally sure she knows.)
Meg: (They are incredibly nice to the messenger.)
gileonnen: (All he wants is for someone to appreciate his work.)
Meg: (They do! In spades!)
gileonnen: (And man, Saber does not. ;__;)
Meg: (Waver will offer food every time! )
(Or if there's anything else that can be used as payment!)
(Because they're grateful, they really are, especially that no one else knows about this except for them and Rider.)
gileonnen: Help, too many Riders!
Meg: Sorry, ALEXANDER.
...although damn, if team sumerians found out about this they'd ENCOURAGE THE HECK OUT OF IT AND ENABLE.
Sent at 11:14 PM on Thursday
Meg: (also if you replied after 'enable' then gchat ate the message)
gileonnen: 'For serious, a way to end the age of gods without bringing about the apocalypse? WHERE DO WE SIGN UP.'
Meg: YEAH THAT IS PRETTY MUCH THEIR ENTIRE ATTITUDE.
WHICH...I imagine that this could be a thing that happens successfully
gileonnen: And now we're hitting my unlikely-allies narrative kink. ^___^
Meg: Because time flow in the afterlife vs the actual real world with it's two goddesses = very different.
It could be a good couple thousand years on the outside, and then Waver and Rin have their success, time loops back to the third grail war and Team Lansaber loses!
gileonnen: AND SUDDENLY WE REJOIN CANON.
Waver and Rin, MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE.
This is at least eight zillion times as epic as destroying the Grail.
Meg: except they never remember it.
gileonnen: ... okay, dying whale noises.
Meg: And the only reason this works at all is because Emiya magecraft is based on the study of time.
And Iri made sure that Rin learned it.
Never mind the fact that the apocalypse nearly happens a few times because of Sumerians being impatient.
8DDD
gileonnen: SUMERIANS.
Meg: 8DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
they aren't smart boys sometimes.
But. No. This isn't remembered at all by anyone excluding Alexander.
Because all possibilities drift through the reality marble.
gileonnen: Oh my god and then Waver dies and REMEMBERS.
... and Rin becomes a part of the marble, too, when she dies.
Meg: ...headcanon accepted on that front regardless of this AU
OH MAN THAT IS JUST AN AWKWARD THING TO REMEMBER - AN ENTIRE FUTURE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
gileonnen: Thousands of years of an entire future.
Meg: unsurprisingly, his brain hurts.
gileonnen: ... right, I think we've wrapped this up with a bow. :D I can go to bed feeling accomplished.
Meg: I am saving this log forever.
Because it is amazing.
gileonnen: It's my new favorite AU of all time. ^___^
And I wrote Richard III in Space, I am not exactly a newcomer to AUs.
Meg: ....okay that is kind of amazing.
PERMISSION TO POST THE REST OF THIS TO RIDER'S JOURNAL?
because we cannot sit on this
gileonnen: DO IT.
POSTED TO RIDER'S JOURNAL BECAUSE I'M TERRIBLE
Meg: Kaede would make a very good deity actually 8|a
WHY AM I THINKING ABOUT THIS SELF NO
gileonnen: she would.
Meg: kirsikka's the vengefulhalf, she's the merciful half.
gileonnen: RIDER WOULD SMACK YOU.
They would make an excellent joint godhead.
And Julie could be the Masked Goddess who weighs men's souls~
And Lancer could be the personification of true devotion.
Meg: Man I have to admit Lancer would also be an AWESOME pscyhopomp.
gileonnen: YES. Very best. ^__^
Meg: (The angry sumerian in my head is pitching a fit over this discussion)
gileonnen: (pats him Oh, honey, you don't get a say.)
Meg: (He gets a say because he has to DEAL WITH ALL OF THIS CRAZY, EXCUSE YOU.)
HM but what would the rituals be, and what would be the mythology surrounding them
gileonnen: ... Lancer and Saber as gods of the dead, she weighs them and measures them and then he leads them to where they have to go; their mythos is about chance meetings and crossroads and frequent partings.
At one point he argues with her for the inherent worth of one soul, and she gives in--and after that, all of the dead are his.
Because if this soul, why not this one? Or this one?
And Kirsikka and Kaede hold sway over the land of the living; when the sky is clouded, they say that Kaede is hiding her face.
A red sunset means Kaede is blushing; it's a good omen for virgins seeking sweethearts.
Meg: Okay I MAYBE just went aaaaaaaaaaw at the last part, because moe god
gileonnen: Cutest. ^____^ She would make a really good god.
Meg: Hm, I would imagine she had more of a devoted cult, Kirsikka is more awe and terror inspiring
gileonnen: nodnod Ditto the Lancer cult.
Meg: Oh goodness you know that six coins in a purse becomes a part of burial ritual.
gileonnen: YES. As does the rite of dressing the dead in the clothes of someone more respectable--in case a costume fools Saber.
Meg: Which makes me wonder about usual ritual acts for the living.
I don't see Kaede being the sacrificial type
gileonnen: Whereas Kirsikka is all 'THEIR HEARTS. ON AN ALTAR.'
Meg: Hm, Kirsikka would be public acts of devotions (and you best do that sacrifice OUTSIDE her sacred spaces), Kaede private then.
Gileonnen: nodnod Just so. Acts of charity are acts in her service; they're nearly the only kind of public worship that exists for her.
There's an order akin to the Faceless Men devoted to Kirsikka's service, giving death to those who have deserved it.
At first they're regarded as simply the monastic face of Kirsikka's worship; after time, though, they're viewed as fringe reactionary lunatics.
Theirs, too, is considered 'private service.'
Meg: The only time their spheres interact would be mourning.
gileonnen: ... so I really want this to be a thing. *_*
Meg: Posted~
And in both cases song is huge.
gileonnen: YES. The primary feature of ritual as it's habitually practiced, rather than ritual for holy days and major life milestones.
Meg: Yessssss.
gileonnen: Heh, looks like you missed a message from me.
Meg: OH DERP
gileonnen: Gileonnen: nodnod Just so. Acts of charity are acts in her service; they're nearly the only kind of public worship that exists for her.
There's an order akin to the Faceless Men devoted to Kirsikka's service, giving death to those who have deserved it.
At first they're regarded as simply the monastic face of Kirsikka's worship; after time, though, they're viewed as fringe reactionary lunatics.
Theirs, too, is considered 'private service.'
Meg: Also I bet the GRail War itself becomes a part of the mythology. Mystery play anyone?
gileonnen: Came after 'Kaede private then.'
Meg: /GOES TO EDIT THAT IN
gileonnen: Sorry, my connection is DEATH.
Meg: IT'S FINE
gileonnen: MYSTERY PLAYS, OH MY GOD, SO MANY MYSTERY PLAYS.
(Especially for the dead, but also for equinoxes, solstices, new years. Constant reiteration of death, rebirth, sacrifice, transcending the mortal plane.)
Meg: (YESYESYESYES)
Probably the big holiday would be whatever day they hit godhead, and there is a definite retelling of the Grail War - leftover from whatever Kirsikka has permitted to filter down. (I don't see this being a religion that focuses on holy writ)
Sent at 9:45 PM on Thursday
gileonnen: Definitely more based on song cycles.
Meg: ....and this means, rather naturally, there are operas that develop from this tradition.
WHICH SHOULD PLEASE JULIE
gileonnen: Well, naturally.
Meg: Somewhere along the line, she gets associated with theatre and wow she's basically going to take on a lot of roles of Bacchus.
Sent at 9:52 PM on Thursday
gileonnen: Lancer's mythos is sort of like Penelope meets Anubis.
Meg: ...oh gosh, you're right
This is really just put mythology in a blender and pulse, huh
gileonnen: Yup! :D
Meg: THE RESULTS ARE DELICIOUS
gileonnen: Kirsikka is like an Aztec Louhi.
Meg: (Which makes your Road to El Dorado montages with It's Tough to be a God even more delightful.)
I wonder how magecraft works within this divine plan though - clearly it'd be seen as some sort of blessing
gileonnen: nods The Third Magic is the sole province of gods, though. The Grail Wars cease.
Meg: Oh, absolutely. They were a dreadful thing of the past.
To try and fidddle with the Third Magic would be punishable by death, if not just be begging for a good smite.
gileonnen: nodnod So essentially the Einzberns become persecutable mages.
Meg: Oh yes.
gileonnen: The Clock Tower is ... probably struck by vengeful lightning.
The Tohsaka line is obliterated from the earth.
Meg: (Things Rider is okay with as far as this fuckery goes: THAT. AND THAT ALONE.)
gileonnen: Kaede asks for mercy for them, and so Lancer spares them in a world like a coccoon.
Meg: Also Kaede, your heart is far too big.
gileonnen: Rider? ... congratulations, you get a place in this cosmology, too.
Meg: .....HE DOESN'T LIKE WHERE THIS IS GOING.
gileonnen: Your task is to be the force that brings about the end of the time of gods.
Meg: ....he stands corrected.
gileonnen: Because every good Asgard needs a Ragnarok.
Meg: Is his friend invited too?
gileonnen: ... dude, we just went over Saber's guilt about shafting Rider's dreams of reuniting with his friend.
Of course his friend is invited, too.
Meg: Oh excellent.
gileonnen: But the deal is--the moment he chooses to end the age of gods, he loses Gilgamesh forever.
Meg: .....
//WHALE
/NOISE
/MANY WHALE NOISES
gileonnen: offers emergency sorbet
Meg: YEAH HANG ON LEMME DO THAT
OKAY got it.
8|a Ah but then what about all the other teams?
gileonnen: Pfft, does Team Lansaber care about them?
Not yet they don't.
Wait until they've gotten acquainted, then we'll decide who goes into the mythology.
Meg: Now what I wonder is HOW this cosmic shift happens
And how do the new deities announce themselves.
Is it from the beginning, and there will have never been a change or--
gileonnen: I think Kirsikka's envisioning a cataclysmic shift.
Meg: ...crap you haven't read Lucifer have you
gileonnen: Not yet! It's on my list.
Along with Transmetropolitan.
Meg: Wait until the election's over for Transmet, TRUST ME HERE
But I ask because there's this one scene in Lucifer where the Basanos (deck of tarot cards given life) announces itself as new gods of a cosmos (riding on the chariot, where "our chariot is ourselves") and I'm seeing something similar here.
gileonnen: Yup, that sounds like Kirsikka.
Meg: I THINK TEAM LANCER WOULD LOOK AWAY
(and ack the entire apocalypse thing is just making me think of this one section from the Death of Gilgamesh)
gileonnen: Mmm?
Meg: "You must have been told that this is what the bane of being human involves. You must have been told that this is what the cutting of your umbilical cord involved. The darkest day of humans awaits you now. The solitary place of humans awaits you now. The unstoppable flood-wave awaits you now. The unavoidable battle awaits you now. The unequal struggle awaits you now. The skirmish from which there is no escape awaits you now
gileonnen: That ... is totally their apocalypse, right there.
Meg: 8D
(the text is sort of patchy itself BUT I REALLY LOVE THIS SECTION)
Ah, and then the next sentence in that section is "But you should not go to the underworld with heart knotted in anger" I SORT OF DOUBT THAT IT IS APPLICABLE TO THIS APOCALYPSE THOUGH
gileonnen: NOPE, it is far more relevant to the progress-of-the-dead narrative.
Meg: ( http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1813.htm full text if you're curious)
gileonnen: You know that's the kind of thing Saber would say before shoving someone at Lancer.
Meg: ...What if every funeral is a mourning play?
Also yes, it totally would be.
I imagine in general Lancer doesn't really command much fear.
(HE IS ASSOCIATED WITH DOGS.)
gileonnen: ^_____^ GREAT BIG BOUNCY PUPPYDOGS.
Meg: YES.
.....oh no I'm having a feeling.
gileonnen: Mm?
Meg: Later on in that text I quoted at you
"Go ahead to the place where the Anuna gods, the great gods, sit at the funerary offerings, to the place where the en priests lie, to where the lagar priests lie, to where the lumah priests and the nindijir priestesses lie, to where the gudu priests lie, to where the linen-clad priests lie, to where the nindijir priestesses lie, to where the ...... lie, to the place where your father, your grandfather, your mother, your sisters, your ......, to where your precious friend, your companion, your friend Enkidu, your young comrade, and the governors appointed by the king to the Great City are, to the place where the sergeants of the army lie, to where the captains of the troops lie,"
FOREVER MAKING WHALE NOISES.
SORBET ISN'T HELPING.
gileonnen: ... so this is a part of the mythos. Saber and Lancer take Gilgamesh to the Land of the Dead to retrieve Enkidu.
And there they make their pact.
Meg: (YOU AREN'T HELPING YM GODDAMN WHALE NOISES)
gileonnen: (I'M NOT EVEN TRYING TO HELP AT THIS POINT.)
Meg: (OH WELL, GLAD WE'RE CLEAR THERE.)
(/IS A POD OF DISTRESSED BELUGAS)
(here lemme throw another part of the text at you too - "Let Gilgamec as a ghost, below among the dead, be the governor of the nether world. Let him be pre-eminent among the ghosts, so that he will pass judgments and render verdicts, and what he says will be as weighty as the words of Ninjiczida and Dumuzid." )
(let's ignore for a moment that this seems like a pretty Not Good plan)
gileonnen: (That is a TERRIBLE plan, you'd better let Saber take that.)
(Here, she will hold the Judging Sword.)
Meg: (THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN THE MYTHOLOGY AND THERE'S EVIDENCE OF PRAYERS, BUT I DIGREE)
(Disgress even.)
....they're identified with chaos
aren't they
gileonnen: Who, Rider and Archer v. 1.0? Yup.
Meg: WELP.
I AM OKAY WITH IT, I DON'T THINK THEY ARE.
gileonnen: KIDS, YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO GET A BETTER MYTHOLOGICAL DEAL.
Meg: SADLY, THEY KNOW THIS.
GILGAMESH IS CANONICALLY GENRE SAVVY.
(AND THEY ARE BOTH JUST MENTALLY CLASSIFYING KIRSIKKA AS ISHTAR.)
gileonnen: (THEY WOULD NOT BE ENTIRELY WRONG.)
Meg: (LOGIC SAYS DON'T SCREW WITH ISHTAR AGAIN. )
(but then that's logic)
AND GDI BECAUSE NOW I'M ME I'M TRYING TO PLY THE 4TH AND 5TH WAR CONTESTANTS INTO THIS COSMOS.
gileonnen: Nonono, there are no more Grail Wars, DESIST.
Meg: OH NO NOT GRAIL WAR WISE JUST
what is everyone even up to
PRESSUMABLY RYUNOSKE JUST DOES HIS THING
gileonnen: Waver never becomes a Clock Tower mage because the Clock Tower is no longer a Thing. Probably Kayneth's line gets squashed in the purge.
Meg: Tokiomi is a non-issue
Kirei?
gileonnen: Depends on what happens to Risei.
Probably leads a Christian resistance for a while.
Probably never gets around to reproducing.
Meg: Kayria doesn't happen either, unless Kaede has divine offspring--
(Kiritsugu working with the Einzbern and going toe to toe with the gods though COULD BE INTERESTING)
(I mean he'd lose, but)
gileonnen: ... oh my god Kariya as spiritual offspring of a virgin Kaede.
The Christians cling to his line.
(If anyone can take 'em down, it's Kiritsugu.)
... but Kariya the new savior, man, I need this mythos in my liiiife.
Meg: SAKDF;JSALKJF;SLKAJFSAL
....you know we're going to have to write this
This is going to be the serious stuff that takes up the Carnival Phantasm thread. You know it.
gileonnen: Yeah, that was my suspicion. What can we say, we like building worlds!
Meg: And this is sort of everything I love?
gileonnen: ... oh god we accidentally eradicated Rin. D:
Meg: ....................................OH RAP
THIS IS ACTUALLY NOT OKAY
gileonnen: STOP, REWIND THIS UNIVERSE.
I mean, the Tohsakas are in their little pocket dimension, Rin could actually exist as far as we know.
Meg: True but does she get to ever leave it?
gileonnen: And, heck, maybe Ilya actually summons her as part of the Einzbern quest for the Third Magic?
Meg: (Rin and Waver bromance is my top priority no matter what)
(DON'T CARE THE AU, FIXED POINT IN TIME)
gileonnen: And she has to be a familiar because she can't maintain her body in this universe without mana?
Meg: ....that would actually be awesome.
Oh no, Iri.
gileonnen: YES.
Iri summons her, and she grows up to be fierce and dangerous and a crack shot.
Meg: YES. YES GOOD. YESYESYESYESYES.
gileonnen: And she tries to convince the mages (like Waver) to go to war against the gods, and Waver ... what does he do?
Sent at 10:46 PM on Thursday
Meg: (also if you sent a message after "what does he do" i didn't get it cos gchat went omnomnom)
gileonnen: Probably tries to take the universe apart at her side.
Meg: WA. VER.
gileonnen: That was what I sent. ^_^;
Meg: somehow, I don't see them pulling it off.
Unless. Hm.
Unless it's a slight of hand.
Kiritsugu's up in the gods' face, Waver and Rin working behind the scenes--
gileonnen: They certainly manage something, but maybe not the thing they meant to.
Meg: Ah, but then what DO they manage?
gileonnen: One of them becomes a god, to keep the others in line. Probably Kiritsugu, based on how the Fate/ series has gone.
Meg: I don't see him being thrilled on that one. I imagine the Rin and Waver story just gets lost for a while, then rediscoverd as an odd little text
gileonnen: It's all very 'Who Watches the Watchmen.'
Meg: Yessssssss.
I am also assuming Iri here gets left out of the deity equation re: Kiritsugu
(I do like to think then, somehow, Shirou enters whatever clerical order becomes attached to Kiritsugu's tradition
gileonnen: I'm down with that. I do love apocrypha~
I am just predicting based on the series.
I'd certainly prefer that it be Iri. She's best suited to be a goddess, after Kaede's mode.
... oh my goodness Shirou actually does grow up to be Archer!Shirou in this universe.
His life is a steampunk sword wonderland.
Meg: Rin and Waver are completely in the apocrypha and MAN I COULD PROBABLY MAKE AN ENTIRE FIC OF ARTICLES IN THE FUTURE TALKING ABOUT THIS ~REDISCOVERED TEXT~
also steampunk sword wonderland sounds like a good album title.
gileonnen: We are so far down the rabbit hole, we are about to emerge in Watership Down.
Meg: I do not even care.
Apocrypha is my jam
Altough OH NO THERE IS NEVER ANY TEAM RIDER AND WAVER
gileonnen: THIRD MAGIC, IT CAN BE A THING.
Meg: ...actually hang on, what happened to the other afterlives BEFORE Kirsikka
Do they get absorbed into the new ones?
gileonnen: ... yeah, let's go with that.
So Rider's still got a reality marble rolling around with the Ionian Hetairoi, inside the other afterlife.
Meg: ...rider.
(I've always said the Ionian Hetairoi is part of the dreaming)
(but this works too)
gileonnen: (there is no mythos of dreams here and that is a crying shame.)
(let's give Kaede that realm.)
Meg: (...yes.)
(Hm though fixed point, Waver is a part of the Ionian Hetairoi, so he bypasses the new afterlife entirely--)
(Which could be interesting actually)
gileonnen: (And Rider is all 'Heh, the world works in mysterious ways' and Waver is all '-___- Mystery MY ENGLISH REAR END, I am going to go do Science to this.')
Meg: (WAVER, HONEY, RESTLESS SPIRIT IS ONE THING, SCIENCING THE AFTERLIFE'S ANOTHER)
(Stop that.)
gileonnen: (But but but but there is a logical underlying structure, he just needs to find it and trace it back to the fracture--)
Meg: (....waver trying to undo the entire third grail war. with science. from the afterlife.)
(because he has figured out something went wrong.)
(WAVER.)
gileonnen: (AND HE KEEPS UP A CORRESPONDENCE WITH A POCKET DIMENSION IN WHICH RIN RESIDES.)
Meg: (ACTUALLY THIS COULD WORK IF THE GODS AREN'T KEEPING AN EYE ON THEM)
(although at one point he's probably tried to drag her into the reality marble, with mixed results.)
gileonnen: (Dude, Saber's messenger facilitates, he thinks it's the best.)
Meg: (Saber they could undo your cosmos, you sure you want to encourage this?)
gileonnen: (I'm not totally sure she knows.)
Meg: (They are incredibly nice to the messenger.)
gileonnen: (All he wants is for someone to appreciate his work.)
Meg: (They do! In spades!)
gileonnen: (And man, Saber does not. ;__;)
Meg: (Waver will offer food every time! )
(Or if there's anything else that can be used as payment!)
(Because they're grateful, they really are, especially that no one else knows about this except for them and Rider.)
gileonnen: Help, too many Riders!
Meg: Sorry, ALEXANDER.
...although damn, if team sumerians found out about this they'd ENCOURAGE THE HECK OUT OF IT AND ENABLE.
Sent at 11:14 PM on Thursday
Meg: (also if you replied after 'enable' then gchat ate the message)
gileonnen: 'For serious, a way to end the age of gods without bringing about the apocalypse? WHERE DO WE SIGN UP.'
Meg: YEAH THAT IS PRETTY MUCH THEIR ENTIRE ATTITUDE.
WHICH...I imagine that this could be a thing that happens successfully
gileonnen: And now we're hitting my unlikely-allies narrative kink. ^___^
Meg: Because time flow in the afterlife vs the actual real world with it's two goddesses = very different.
It could be a good couple thousand years on the outside, and then Waver and Rin have their success, time loops back to the third grail war and Team Lansaber loses!
gileonnen: AND SUDDENLY WE REJOIN CANON.
Waver and Rin, MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE.
This is at least eight zillion times as epic as destroying the Grail.
Meg: except they never remember it.
gileonnen: ... okay, dying whale noises.
Meg: And the only reason this works at all is because Emiya magecraft is based on the study of time.
And Iri made sure that Rin learned it.
Never mind the fact that the apocalypse nearly happens a few times because of Sumerians being impatient.
8DDD
gileonnen: SUMERIANS.
Meg: 8DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
they aren't smart boys sometimes.
But. No. This isn't remembered at all by anyone excluding Alexander.
Because all possibilities drift through the reality marble.
gileonnen: Oh my god and then Waver dies and REMEMBERS.
... and Rin becomes a part of the marble, too, when she dies.
Meg: ...headcanon accepted on that front regardless of this AU
OH MAN THAT IS JUST AN AWKWARD THING TO REMEMBER - AN ENTIRE FUTURE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
gileonnen: Thousands of years of an entire future.
Meg: unsurprisingly, his brain hurts.
gileonnen: ... right, I think we've wrapped this up with a bow. :D I can go to bed feeling accomplished.
Meg: I am saving this log forever.
Because it is amazing.
gileonnen: It's my new favorite AU of all time. ^___^
And I wrote Richard III in Space, I am not exactly a newcomer to AUs.
Meg: ....okay that is kind of amazing.
PERMISSION TO POST THE REST OF THIS TO RIDER'S JOURNAL?
because we cannot sit on this
gileonnen: DO IT.
POSTED TO RIDER'S JOURNAL BECAUSE I'M TERRIBLE
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adsjkf too cute
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